Redwood Customer Service Absent?

[Blue Dogs]

Well here I am 1 year latter. Our trailer has ben at the dealer for repairs since last September. All things fixed except one that is not a major structural or anything but it is something that was found on pre deliver inspection and promised to be fixed. the dealer has exhausted their ability to fix the issue and suggested I contact Redwood Customer Service. The issue is the fisher Paykal Dishwasher will not run on the Gen set.
After the fisher Paykal service center working on it at least twice and the Gen set being tested twice by onan Redwood now says they (the dishwasher) are not meant to be ran off of a gen set. No one told us this(we dry camp way more that park camp) until now. So after 1 year of attempting to fix it, Redwood says oh sorry.
So contacting Redwood Customer Service I chat with a nice fellow named Jessie Sidlow, he says he will talk to engineering and see what can be done only to contact me a week later saying engineering found in a wiring diagram from FP that the DW is only meant to run off of Grid Current. (this info was not with the trailer & brought up at any point during the year the dealer was trying to fix) He says sorry nothing they can do. I ask to speak to his supervisor Mike Antal the "Retail Customer Service Manager". Jessie tells me he will "give him the message and my number", so I wait ................ nothing after 3 days so I call back to be told "I never said he would call you I only said I would give him your issue and your number". So I ask for his boss only to be connected with Mike .... who says this is not a warranty problem because the FK DW is not meant to be used on a gen set .... I said I was not told ... he says it was your salesman's job to inform you, I ask how was he to know when Redwood didn't know for a Year, the FP Service center didn't know because they tried to make it work and Customer service didn't know ... I ask when Redwood sold the Trailer to the dealer did their sales staff inform the dealers sales staff of this ... he said he didn't know that's not his department .... proceeded to tell me he will look into a solution and get back to me ... I wait ... 2 days later I get a call from Jessie that he wants to send me an informative e-mail .. OK ... I get it, its the document form FP stating the dishwasher is only meant for Grid power. A weekend and two more days go by and I get a call from Jessie "calling on Mikes behalf" say sorry there is nothing they can do. I ask how they can install an appliance in a Generated powered RV that isn't approved for use on a generator ... he has no reply, I ask Why Mike did not return my call he said he was busy, I ask if any other appliances in my coach were not approved to run on a generator he said he has no idea. And that's where I am.
Sorry for the super long post but I really think that a "customer service manager" in charge of "Customer Service" who doesn't have time for a customer with a un resolved problem for over a year isn't much a a customer Service manager and very well could be the reason so many customer complaints are not getting the attention of the upper management.
I to date have still not received a copy of the Redwood Warranty after multiple requests. My trailer is over 100 miles away at the dealer waiting on a fix Redwood says isn't coming after 1 year of trying to fix it and I still have no clue how many other appliances are not meant to be ran on Generator power that are installed in a RV with a generator to power them.
I am now attempting to contact Jim Isbicki who is Mike Antal's supervisor to see what Redwood plans to do to make sure consumers are properly informed of this issue before purchase. Also To ask what is the Job of the "Retail Customer Service Manager".

Having this DW is one of the big reasons my wife chose this RW over other brands. If I would have know of this issue I would never have taken delivery. I don't believe Redwood knew for over a year until now, and now refuse to take responsibility for their manufacturing mistake


Wish me luck!
Vent over!

[atom ant]

Wow! Two things:

1. Don't want to sound like sour grapes, but what do you want them to do? Take back your Redwood? I don't think you are giving them a hoop to jump through, so they probably don't know what to do with it. From their perspective, they answered your technical concern and probably figure its unrealistic to expect to run a dishwasher dry camping.

2. Something is wrong still - and between redwood and the Dealer and Onan, they are surrendering. My dishwasher runs on my Onan 5500. I have an older Onan (2003) and maybe that is why, I don't know. But I would start asking Onan what you should expect and then start following the phasing and polarity of how they ran that generator cabling including the transfer switch. Don't rely on the Dealer, as they are not universally good at what they do. If polarity is reversed, you may not notice with 99% of the equipment, but the Dishwasher may be sensitive to it.

Don't let a dishwasher ruin a good thing - They've only been around for a year or two in RVs

[Blue Dogs]

Not sour grapes at all,
I have given them a hoop, the dealer gave them a hoop they refuse to do it. This trailer has been taken to Cummins Northwest the Onan service center (it's a new 5500 LP) and all voltage has been checked clear through to the dishwasher and all is good and within spec.
Our dealer suggested that the dishwasher be ran through an inverter to give it a constant voltage (this is the design Tiffin Motor homes uses) and redwood says it would void the DW warranty .... Well as soon as I started my gen and didn't turn off the DW at the breaker the warranty was voided for being ran on a current other than grid power. So this was done at pre delivery so in essence the DW warranty was void before I took delivery. There is nothing put out by redwood saying not to operate on gen but they hide behind fine print so as not to have to make it right.
No I don't want them to buy back my trailer I just want the appliances They installed to work in the application for which they installed them.
Redwood originally told the dealer they would size and engineer a setup for the inverter ... Great ... Two weeks later when the dealer pressed where was it they send the fine print doc and say sorry.
Just make it work in the application they installed it that's all I want!

[Dave&Ginny]

Since the DW was installed by Redwood it should be covered under their warranty period even if it voids the manufactures warranty. I would require Redwood to provide some sort of inverter that would power the dishwasher. You won't be the only person with this problem because one of the features of the dishwashers is that it uses less water. This feature will be very important to other dry campers.

I would point out that this isn't going to be an isolated issue and lucky for them you're their genii pig. If everyone keeps their cool, this should able to be worked out.

Good luck

[JeffM]

Hi Yale,

Please know that I have been in contact with Kevin at your dealership and am working on resolving your concerns.

Also, please private message me your email address and I will provide a copy of your Redwood manual/warranty.

Thank you,

Jeff

[Blue Dogs]

Originally Posted by Dave&Ginny

Since the DW was installed by Redwood it should be covered under their warranty period even if it voids the manufactures warranty. I would require Redwood to provide some sort of inverter that would power the dishwasher. You won't be the only person with this problem because one of the features of the dishwashers is that it uses less water. This feature will be very important to other dry campers.

I would point out that this isn't going to be an isolated issue and lusky for them you're their genii pig. If everyone keeps their cool, this should able to be worked out.

Good luck

I Agree Dave,
I have been waiting for a year and really thought we had a fix all lined up. Then they find the grid power only statement and now say the warranty is void on the DW because we have attempted to run it on the gen set. It was ran on the gen set at pre delivery, just got off the phone with the sales manager at the dealership and he is contacting his sales rep and going at it that way rather than through service.
I really feel that this Retail service manager is a weak link in why customers aren't being heard as well as they should, he is totally disconnected from the customer ... too bad!
Still trying to work through this in a civil way and hope someone at Redwood will simply take care of this issue and all the other customers that may have the same problem. It needs be addressed going forward in production as Dave stated rather than just swept under the rug.

[Blue Dogs]

Originally Posted by JeffM

Hi Yale,

Please know that I have been in contact with Kevin at your dealership and am working on resolving your concerns.

Also, please private message me your email address and I will provide a copy of your Redwood manual/warranty.

Thank you,

Jeff

Done and Thank You Jeff!

[Dave&Ginny]

Over the past couple of years helping people resolve issues I have found that the dealerships were usually the problem. Redwood has on the most part stood up and took the heat when it was their turn. However the dealerships were usually blaming Redwood for issues that should have been pointed back to them. For example, we had someone a couple of years ago stating that the dealership was blaming Redwood for not shipping parts. After talking with some of my sources, it was discovered that the dealership had just sent in the order that day (a few months late). So it wasn't Redwood's fault at all.

Yale, this sounds like something that should be able to be resolved. Now that Jeff is getting involved I'm sure it will be worked out.

Good luck

[atom ant]

? Did the dishwasher break because you ran it on generator and they are not warrantying it, or does it just not work on generator?

[Blue Dogs]

Originally Posted by atom ant

? Did the dishwasher break because you ran it on generator and they are not warrantying it, or does it just not work on generator?

It has never worked on the gen set and throws a code immediately. It did this on pre delivery check at the dealer and continues to this day.

[Blue Dogs]

Originally Posted by Dave&Ginny

Over the past couple of years helping people resolve issues I have found that the dealerships were usually the problem. Redwood has on the most part stood up and took the heat when it was their turn. However the dealerships were usually blaming Redwood for issues that should have been pointed back to them. For example, we had someone a couple of years ago stating that the dealership was blaming Redwood for not shipping parts. After talking with some of my sources, it was discovered that the dealership had just sent in the order that day (a few months late). So it wasn't Redwood's fault at all.

Yale, this sounds like something that should be able to be resolved. Now that Jeff is getting involved I'm sure it will be worked out.

Good luck

Redwood has the records and dates for service request dating back to delivery. I personally know when the trailer was worked on by the FP DW service tech and also the time Onan service has checked current output and specs on the gen set. The Dealer has went above and beyond only to get a cold shoulder from Mr. Antal at Redwood Service. I have heard Redwoods Position with my own ears so I know the dealer in this case is not the problem.
I sincerely hope the Jeff can get this corrected in short order and I hope that there will be a production change to correct the issue going forward for future customers. I sure would like to get it back and use this thing... tis the season!

[atom ant]

Yale,
I'm chatting with another owner that says they have the same issue, and they want to know if you ever tried running the dishwasher while the generator was already under load such at the AC or something? Theirs sometimes works that way.

Not that it is a fix, they were just curious. They also have been trying to diagnose what the issue is.

[Lloyd]

Have you ever heard of this?
Generator Ground-Neutral Bonding | No~Shock~Zone

[brenkco]

I am writing this post, NOT as an electrician (as I am not!) but to give you perhaps something to check into. I do boondock, using 1 or 2 Honda 2000's. Both the dishwasher and splendide washer/dryer will not run with the companion of the 2 Honda's. The splendide will start/stop every few seconds. The dishwasher will throw a code and act as unhappy as the splendide.

The problem is that the Honda's have a floating ground. Both of these appliances expect a positive, neutral and ground. Absent the real ground, they don't work.

The solution for the Honda's is to make an NG plug. A simple three prong plug, inserted in the Honda with the neutral and ground tied together (thus the NG or neutral ground bonded) solves the problem. It gives both the appliances the appearance of a ground when in fact, no earth ground exists.

I have read that typically the Onan does not have this problem as it is grounded to the chassis, where the Honda has no such ground. The Onan should work as Brad has described. It seems to me that you might have a grounding problem that is causing your dishwasher havoc running off the Onan. You might have them double check the ground....it sure is a problem for portables!

Ken

[mesg]

http://www.redwoodowners.com/forums/...sher-1341.html we have had the same issue with the dishwasher not running on the genny.. Once we had the genny PROPERLY serviced and set up.. all is good

[jmsokol]

I'm Mike Sokol from the No~Shock~Zone. A link to my article about properly neutral bonding a portable generator was posted above and here: Generator Ground-Neutral Bonding | No~Shock~Zone

I've written on hundreds of similar forums about the problem of using a Honda or Yamaha Inverter generator to power an RV. And my article details a simple $2 fix for this. I've just contacted Redwood's customer service department about this, and they've already responded and will review the details.

In the meantime all of this electrical information as well as RV hot-skin testing and lot more is covered in my recent No~Shock~Zone book about RV Electrical Safety. Don't know if I'm allowed to post a link to it here without violating forum rules, so can the moderator please contact me about how to proceed.

[Blue Dogs]

Originally Posted by Lloyd

Have you ever heard of this?
Generator Ground-Neutral Bonding | No~Shock~Zone

Originally Posted by mesg

http://www.redwoodowners.com/forums/...sher-1341.html we have had the same issue with the dishwasher not running on the genny.. Once we had the genny PROPERLY serviced and set up.. all is good

Thanks for the help!
I assure you this gen set has been checked as well as grounding a polarity by the Onan Service center and distributor and is all good. I have head of the load thing and the dealer is going to test this to see if load helps. The problem is how do you maintain an extra constant load for the hour and a half plus it takes to run a cycle?
I really don't think this is a fix but it might shed light on the real cause. The dealer feels that running it through an inverter thus giving a constant load and voltage is the answer but at this Point Redwood is not willing to go that rout.
I'm willing to give the dealer and Redwood with Jeffs help a little more time to find me a solution. The sad part is as I read this there are others experiencing the same issue, seems Redwood would want people's RV's to work properly and serve them trouble free, clearly this is an issue that needs addressed.
Thanks All I'll keep you posted!

[atom ant]

It just doesn't make sense that yours would need an inverter, when others do not.

[jmsokol]

Originally Posted by atom ant

It just doesn't make sense that yours would need an inverter, when others do not.

I'm Mike Sokol from the No~Shock~Zone. Thanks for posting the link to my article about generator G-N bonding.

Seems like grasping at straws. The small Honda and Yamaha generators we typically use are "inverter" generators. That is, they're actually high-quality inverters powered by a DC generator and gasoline engine rather than a battery. That's why their outputs are so stable...

I've contacted the Redwood dealer service department about this problem and they've responded back to me already. I've seen these types of failures hundreds of times, and it's nearly always a floating neutral generator creating an open ground fault shutdown in a piece of equipment that has EGC ground monitoring. I'll bet that's what's happening in this case. Has anyone set up a test with this brand and model of refrigerator to see what happens when the shore power's EGC safety ground opens up?

[jmsokol]

Originally Posted by brenkco

The problem is that the Honda's have a floating ground. Both of these appliances expect a positive, neutral and ground. Absent the real ground, they don't work.

While you're conceptually right, I'm going to take the liberty of correcting the wording so that EE's, electricians, and technicians are all using the same language. Please don't take offense, as the misuse of the word "ground" is pervasive in the industry.

The confusion starts with the fact that everybody uses the word "ground" to describe a bunch of different things, many of which are not really earth ground. So in your RV's electrical system you're going to have at least one Line (hot), a Neutral (return), and an EGC Ground (Equipment Grounding Conductor). In the RV's electrical system the Ground and Neutral must maintain separation so as to prevent intermingling the neutral current with any Ground Fault currents that might occur. However, the same Neutral and Ground should be "bonded" together by whatever pedestal, home outlet, or generator they're plugged into. Not that no actual "earth ground" is required for this. What you're really creating is something we call a "ground plane" or "local ground" that is typically isolated from the actual earth.

If you have an on-board generator such as an Onan, then there will be a transfer switch that bonds the neutral and ground bus together while running on generator power, but un-bonds the neutral and ground bus for shore power. This all works well, as long as you're plugging your shore power connector into a pedestal or home outlet that has its own Ground-Neutral bond (in addition to an earth ground rod). However, if you plug your shore power connection into a floating neutral generator, the transfer switch is still set to shore power and expecting a G-N bond externally. All small Honda and Yamaha inverter generators have a floating neutral, which is what causes any ground monitoring electronics to report an open ground and shut down. I suspect that your refrigerator are doing exactly that.

You probably just need to provide an external G-N bond at the generator, which I show as a regular 15-amp Edison plug with the Ground and Neutral screws bonded by a jumper wire. This is a very common issue with Progressive Industries EMS surge protectors. And they're going to sell a prewired G-N bonding plug per my article.

Please let me know if this clarifies the situation a bit.